In the latest episode of The Envelope video podcast, Jennifer Lopez and Jharrel Jerome discuss their inspirational sports movie, “Unstoppable,” and exiled Iranian filmmaker Mohammad Rasoulof recounts the harrowing experience making “The Seed of the Sacred Fig.”

Kelvin Washington: Hello and welcome to another episode of “The Envelope.” I’m Kelvin Washington, joined by a couple of folks you know. As always, I have Yvonne Villarreal right here, Mark Olsen on my right. Let’s get straight into it. Let’s start with you, Yvonne. Tell me more about the time you spent with Jennifer Lopez, also Jharrel Jerome and the film “Unstoppable.” What did you learn and how did that go?

Yvonne Villarreal: This is based on a true story, and Jharrel Jerome, who you may know from “Moonlight” or “When They See Us,” he stars as Anthony Robles as this athlete who was born with one leg and really overcomes incredible obstacles to become the college wrestling champion. And Jennifer Lopez plays his mother, Judy Robles, who’s basically his fiercest advocate in this journey that he’s on. And it was really fun to see their dynamic, the way they vibe off each other, the fun that they have together. They both hail from the Bronx, so I did my duty to the greater public and I got Jharrel Jerome’s bodega order because we already know Jennifer’s. Mark, do you know Jennifer’s?

Mark Olsen: No.

Washington: She said “we.” I was like, “Am I the only one who didn’t get this?” All right, what is Jennifer’s?

Villarreal: Ham and cheese on a roll. Orange drink. If you know, you know. With a bag of chips.

Washington: I love how we were all supposed to know that. But chopped cheese — I’m going to assume a chopped cheese is involved in this.

Villarreal: Look, no spoilers. They gotta listen.

Washington: A great point. Touché. OK, so I’m going to go to you now. We have Mohammad Rasoulof of “The Seed of the Sacred Fig,” Mark — obviously a different tone, a little more serious with this. So your time with him, your time talking about this film.

Olsen: The movie is really a gripping thriller. It’s about a family in Tehran where the father, a wife and their two daughters … It becomes somewhat of an allegory for living under this sort of repressive, patriarchal regime there in Iran. But in so many ways, it’s Mohammad Rasoulof’s own story that is what is so compelling here. He was in prison in Iran, was freed, was making this movie when he found out he was going to be getting a new prison sentence and so he finished shooting the movie and then fled on foot to Germany, where he now lives in exile, was able to finish the film, took it to the Cannes Film Festival. It is just an astonishing story and he wears it so lightly. And there’s something just so inspiring to be with him and to talk to him and to hear him tell not just his own experiences, but also what filmmaking means to him and what keeps him doing this.

Washington: You won’t have us complaining about anything.

Villarreal: I was just going to say, were you like, “I can tackle the 405”?

Washington: I won’t complain about my little bit of commute and traffic anymore, when people have real-life issues, real-world issues that have happened to them. OK, so that sounds amazing as well. I want to get to Yvonne right now. This is Jennifer Lopez, Jharrel Jerome, “Unstoppable.”

Villarreal: “Unstoppable” is a film about perseverance and strength and overcoming adversity. Anthony and Judy are really the bleeding heart of this film. They’re not just mother and son. They’re each other’s protectors. They’ve really grown up with each other. And for a long time, it was just the two of them. Jennifer, talk to me about what it was like cultivating that bond with Jharrel.

Lopez: The main thing was exactly that — that their relationship was going to be, like you say, the heart and soul of the movie. When Jharrel and I met for the first time, he came over to my house with [William Goldenberg], the director, and we talked. I had my script and I had all my notes and I had all the scenes broken down and everything. But the one thing I wanted was to connect with him on like, “I’m your person; I’m your mother. I need to be able to treat you like my son, like how I treat my own son — very affectionate, very loving, looking in your eyes.” But they also had a different kind of relationship, maybe even than I had with my own children, because they were alone right away. … He was born without a leg and she was 16 years old. And so they were kind of like children together and they grew up together. So they even had more of a special bond in that way.

Villarreal: How was that for you, [Jharrel]? I don’t want to sound like a creeper, but I’ve seen your own mother’s Instagram page for you, and that woman loves you.

Lopez: She has a page?

Jerome: It’s a specific page dedicated to being the mother of Jharrel Jerome. She did that three years ago. It’s sweet, but she’s clout chasing. She looks at her phone and she’s like, “Look, I got new followers…” I’m like, “Mom, shush.”

Villarreal: But you know what that bond is like. So how was that for you on your side of things?

Jerome: Incredible. I use a lot of my relationship that I have with my mother in this film with Jen. Like Jen said, that was the big conversation we had in the beginning, is how close should we be and how comfortable will we allow ourselves to get? And once we agreed that it was about getting past that comfort zone and just going full in, I just pulled from the proud mama’s boy in me.

Lopez: Because once you meet Anthony and Judy, you see it. And you see it more from Anthony because he really credits his mom for the person that he is and he calls her his hero. That was something that we had to really show.

Jerome: It’s the sweetest parallel to my life. Anthony and I are very similar in that way because without my mom, I wouldn’t be here at all. She had me at a very young age, too, in the Bronx, alone, as well. So Anthony and I bonded over that, actually. It was almost unspoken. We didn’t have to speak on how close we were to our moms and how important they were. It was just a known energy. Guys can feel that too. You can meet another guy and it’s like, “You’re a softy. You love your mom too?”

Villarreal: You mentioned the Bronx. You’re both from the Bronx. How much did that play a role in having a shared background? And we know Jennifer’s bodega order — ham and cheese on a roll.

Lopez: Yes!

Villarreal: Orange drink.

Lopez: Yep!

Villarreal: If you know, you know. Small bag of chips. What’s your bodega order, Jharrel?

Lopez: And be careful because they’re going to make fun of you for years and years and years about it.

Jerome: I want to give a worse answer to make your answer better. What was wrong with your answer?

Lopez: I don’t know. It was just the truth. I just was like, these little quarter drinks. I just remember them. And I didn’t think anybody else knew about that.

Jerome: Maybe you just talked about it too sweet. The quarter drinks.

Lopez: I don’t know.

Jerome: For me, it’s bacon, egg and cheese — I just go with the classic — and Arizona iced tea, when I was a kid. But I elevated my palate to a chopped cheese, eventually —

Lopez: A what?

Jerome: A chopped cheese. You don’t know what a chopped cheese is? This is why they were yelling at you probably because, right now, the hot thing at the bodega is a chopped cheese.

Lopez: I don’t know. It’s like, if I’m going to the Bronx, I’m visiting family and I’m eating home-cooked food.

Jerome: The last thing you’re doing is getting a chopped cheese.

Villarreal: I want to talk more about the relationship that you developed with Anthony and Judy. Jharrel, let’s start with you. What was important for you to sort of mine from him? You met with him before COVID. What did you want to suss out from those interactions?

Jerome: His kindness. This guy is the nicest guy you’ll ever meet. And I don’t say that lightly. He’s truly so charming. He lights up every room. His smile is so wide. And he’s an incredibly brutal wrestler. He’s dominant on the mat. He’s monstrous on the mat. So what I wanted to suss out was that balance that he has — who he is on the mat versus who he is off the mat. And when I got to spend time with him in his home, with his wife and his child, his mother, his family, that’s when I started to realize: wrestling is the most important thing in his heart, but it’s the last thing that makes him him, as well as his disability. These things don’t make him him. It’s the heart that he has and the fact that he is the nicest guy. I wanted to make sure the world felt that when they saw that and when they saw the performance.

Villarreal: There’s a scene in the film where Judy shares the story of Anthony’s birth. [Jennifer,] that really came from you establishing a trust with Judy where she felt comfortable sharing difficult moments. You’re someone that knows what it’s like to be in the public eye, what it’s like to be judged and having that caution of how much you want to share. How did that guide or shape your discussions with Judy [and saying], “I think it’s important to go here” and “this is what we’re going to do” — knowing when to push for a scene like that?

Lopez: If you’re going to expose yourself like that, you’re going to be talked about. But I wanted her to trust me with my experience with that, to know what was right for telling her story in the best way and telling Anthony’s story in the best way. In telling Anthony’s story, you have to understand the relationship with him and Judy. And you have to understand Judy. Because that contributed to who Anthony became and who he is today. I really wanted her to just feel comfortable and trust me. And I told her things and she told me things. And we really identified with each other on a lot of different experiences. To her credit, she was very brave. She opened up. She told me things that I was able to add to the script — when I tell him that he’s unstoppable. She shares with him a story from when he was 1 year old that was straight from Judy’s mouth to me. And I wrote it down and I was like, “This is really important.” Carrying the burden of, “This was my fault. You are like this because of me. And it’s my fault that you had a tough childhood. And it’s my fault that you had this stepfather.” And even though the kid doesn’t think that, you carry that with you.

And it was important for her to take that responsibility in her growing up and becoming an adult who believed that she was worthy of something because he had become something. He was becoming something that was so inspirational to so many people, and it changed her. It changed her life. And the love and the care that she poured into him and the belief that he could do anything, he wound up kind of bringing that all the way back to her.

Villarreal: That’s a lot to sort of be trusted with.

Lopez: It was picking and choosing the things — not things where [you’re like], “Oh, this could be dramatic!” No, it was things that help tell the story and help you understand their trajectory. And for it to be triumphant, for it to be inspirational, you have to talk about the difficult times. That’s what makes it so triumphant, that they had to overcome certain things, both of them. She was very, very integral in helping me form her character.

Villarreal: Jharrel, I want to talk about the physicality of this performance. It’s always a process for any character to sort of figure out how they move and things like that, but believably capturing how someone’s center of gravity is maybe shifted because they have one leg like seems like quite the mental undertaking. Talk to me about what that was like for you, the prep work that you went into to figure out how Anthony moves in the world.

Jerome: Practice makes perfect. I trained for seven and a half months or so with Anthony, five days a week. That was the most helpful experience ever. At first, the pressure was there, but then it just turned into endless information. In terms of the wrestling, Anthony has a very specific style. There’s one way to learn wrestling, it’s another [thing] to learn Anthony Robles’ wrestling. And, so, to actually have him there, get on the ground with me, get on the mat, get me used to gliding on my knee and on my fists and on my hands, getting used to getting slammed — that was the trick. That was the trick in this whole thing. It wasn’t necessarily learning wrestling, but it was learning the confidence of a wrestler and learning the confidence of Anthony Robles. There were many times in the early stages of rehearsing and learning wrestling where I would get picked up and I’m like, “Wait … no, no.” I didn’t want to get slammed down. By the time we got to set, it was like —

Lopez: “Don’t slam me!”

Jerome: Seriously, like, I’m an actor. [Laughs] But then I realized that the essence of who he is would be completely gone if I didn’t have at least an ounce of the confidence that he carries.

Lopez: To know what it felt like.

Jerome: The feeling of being in the air and just knowing, all right, you’re going to hit the ground. And these wrestlers, they do it for a living. You have to trust the safety in the sport and trust the other wrestlers that you’re wrestling with. And once that happened, and I’m flying in the air, landing on the ground and popping back up, I’m like, “Oh, yeah, I’m Anthony.”

Villarreal: How is Anthony as a teacher? And at what point could you sense his frustration with you?

Jerome: Damn. Or his happiness and pride in the work. [laughs] He’s an incredible teacher. He’s a teacher now. He’s a coach at his high school now. And it makes perfect sense why. He’s patient. He’s not yelling. He’s not saying, “You didn’t get that.” There’s a couple of things that Anthony can do [that] no one else can do because he’s missing the limb. My leg is there. So there’s a couple ways he was able to contort his body, flips that he was able to do that only he was able to do. And so that was the frustrating part for all of us. It wasn’t that it was like, “Jharrel sucks.” It was just like, “How can we actually get this done the right way, so it looks fluid, it looks clean?” And that was Anthony’s coach from college, Brian Stith, who was involved in that heavily. It was never frustrating. I’m a quick learner, I’m not gonna lie.

Villarreal: How about that hike with the crutches? [There’s a scene in the film where, as part of the wrestling team’s conditioning, the coach [played by Don Cheadle] has them climb a mountain.]

Jerome: It was funny because that was the hardest day on set, but the day I was most proud of the work. That scene took the entire day. We started at 4 a.m. and we wrapped around 8 p.m., 9 p.m.. So we did about a 15, 16-hour day and it was freezing cold, but we had to play like it was summertime. We’re in tank tops and stuff. But as for the actual heavy lifting of the crutches, by that point, I had been so comfortable in the crutches. I was crutching around everywhere, running and getting up and down. When I was going up that mountain, I was like, “I really kind of learned how to get around on these crutches.” It just made me proud as a human and an actor. As for the actual work, Anthony was a big part of that as well. He did a lot of the heavy work. My team was, “Jharrel, you did the work. Keep saying you did the work.” I’ve got to always give Anthony that sort of credit because what he was able to do that day and take himself back. The lead actor is always the center. My energy feeds into the rest of the energy. But Anthony’s energy was the core, especially that day. And we all looked at him like, first of all, “how the hell did you ever do this?” And then second, “how did you do it? And let’s get it done to make it as visceral as we can for you.”

Villarreal: He also served as a stunt double for some of the wrestling scenes —

Jerome: All of them.

Villarreal: What was that like — to have him contribute to your performance as him, to connect in that way?

Jerome: A lot of the things that Billy was able to catch beyond my eyes and the nuances — it came from a lot of my choices, for sure, and my personal choices — but a lot of it came from getting to watch Anthony in all situations. I didn’t just YouTube Anthony, I didn’t just read his book and I didn’t just interview him for two days. I saw him on the wrestling mat, in control and confident, equally on set, shy and coy and new. And so I seen him around his mom, around his fiance, and this kid; I’ve seen him in all these different lights. If I didn’t get to, I’m not sure how personal that performance would have been able to be. But five years of friendship and weirdly studying every single little thing and different situations helped a lot. .

Villarreal: Jennifer, being a parent is its own sort of wrestling match of demands and emotions, especially when you’re the parent of a child the outside world might see as different. And I’m curious how seeing Judy’s internal battle either felt different or felt aligned to how you, Jennifer, think about the security of your family or protecting your family.

Lopez: I’ll speak to the film and Judy and how painful that part of her life was, to be strong and let him know, “I’m here, I’m watching you, I’m always here supporting you.” [To] be the voice in his head and the voice in his ear and the picture in his mind [saying] “You’re just like anybody else, but also your differences make you stronger and more impressive in a lot of ways.” I think, for her, it was really hard to hide a lot of that pain. And she did. And I think that was the great thing about playing Judy, is that her kids had very little idea of how much she was suffering. They just felt like she was a great mom who was always happy, who was always up, who was always inspiring them. And when I spoke to her, she was like, “I was always so terrified when he went on the mat. I was so scared. I was nervous. I would get angry in the stand. I would yell at people.” It was a side that they really didn’t know. It was great to to deal with that. And I guess as a mom, when you have a child who is different and the world is going to look at them in a way that can be hurtful — not from just other kids, but from adults — that’s a painful thing for a parent because there’s only so much you can do. All of those scenes in the stands were infused with all of the things that she shared, that she felt, that Anthony didn’t even know about. I see sometimes when I’m talking about the role and talking about things me and Judy have spoken about, I see Anthony, his eyebrows would go up, like, “I didn’t know that.”

Jerome: Yeah, and vice versa.

Lopez: When I met Anthony and Judy together and he had realized all the things she told me, he would look at her, like, “Are we talking about this?” He still was still very protective of her. And she was the one who really was more open. And he was very protective of his mom. And I understood it. So I didn’t press him too much. She gave me what I needed. But it was nice to see that dynamic of how protective he was.

Jerome: And you probably learned from that as well.

Lopez: Yes, and why she felt so strongly about protecting him, not letting him quit and not letting the [step]dad say, “He should just be working. He should give up wrestling.” When he [Anthony] did all that, she [said] — and this was a big part of the performance for me, too — “He made me realize that I was worthy of love, too.” Because she never felt good enough, she felt like she was a statistic, she felt like all of these things because of her life and her life circumstances, her choices. And she beat herself up for that so much, which is why I played her in that way. But when he said to her, “I will give this up and I will help you and I’ll take care of you,” she said that was the moment when her life changed.

She was just like, “Wow, he loves me. He believes in me.” And that’s when she wanted to do better. And that’s when she started studying and deciding that she was going to change her life, too, and accomplish her dreams as well, and that that was possible.

Villarreal: The other inspirational tale out of this film, you see the arc of this woman growing self-esteem and getting reacquainted with herself after it felt like everything was crumbling down. Jennifer, you started the journey of Judy at a different point in your life than you are now. How did playing her shape or change your outlook in terms of what you feel like you’re capable of overcoming or what you want out of this next chapter for yourself?

Lopez: You’re right, I was in a different place than I am today. And it’s actually really a beautiful thing because in playing Judy, I understood a lot of the dynamics that she had gone through and even more of the personal stuff that we didn’t even share in the movie, but [we did] with each other — I was able to privately use it. And for me, those things are very healing. You play these certain characters and something happens to you. If you’re really able to heal a part of yourself, it’s why you’re drawn to certain projects. There’s all these projects that you can do and it’s, like, “Which ones do I do?” What happens is, it’s not coincidental; it’s the ones that are exactly the ones that you need at the moment to go to your next level of who you are. And so it’s not surprising that I am where I am today, which is a very different place than I was a year ago.

Villarreal: Jharrel, are you still keeping up with wrestling? Were you watching Tokyo Olympics thinking, “I know what you guys are going through?” Has it stayed in your life?

Lopez: You’re like, “I could get that. I could win the gold.”

Jerome: Actually doing the sport and getting on the mat and getting on the ground, I have not done. But the mentality has not left me.

Lopez: You have more of an athlete’s mentality. When I heard you talking earlier, I thought to myself, it was like when I played Selena [Quintanilla]. I was a dancer at the time. I hadn’t made a record yet, and I just was approaching it from like this other place, as an actor and a dancer. And then I was like, “She’s a singer.” It’s like you. It’s like all of a sudden you were like, “He’s an athlete. I have to be an athlete.”

Jerome: Yeah, I have to think like an athlete and move like an athlete. That doesn’t leave you.

Lopez: If you’re not an athlete, it’s a new thing.

Jerome: Yeah. I learned a lot in the gym. I learned a lot about what my body could do, what I’m physically capable of. And once you learn that and teach yourself that, it almost becomes a habit and lifestyle. So now I’m like — I’m not picking people to wrestle to the ground right now, but my work ethic and my fitness, everything. Skin glowing? It’s the gym. Teeth good? That’s the gym. Fit is nice? That’s the gym. It’s not me. It’s the gym.

Villarreal: How early on did Anthony and Judy visit the set and what was that like?

Lopez: I think they were there the first day, weren’t they?

Jerome: Anthony was living in L.A. [and] training me. The last day of our boot camp was the day before Day 1 of shooting. He stuck around and they came into the house and they were so weirded out. The details [by the production designers] are incredible.

Villarreal: Before we wrap, you touched on it at the top of our conversation, but I feel like we don’t give enough due to our mothers and how they help us get to where we are —

Lopez: Oh my God. Moms are always the villain character. I watch TV now and I’m like, why is the mom always [inaudible]?

Jerome: Or the one who doesn’t understand; she doesn’t get it.

Lopez: Why? We [moms] love you. We love you more than anybody.

Jerome: “I’m like, shut up, [inaudible] You are so annoying.”

Lopez: What did you say? Clout-chasing. [laughs] You know, it’s so funny, because in my recent years, my whole attitude about my mom has changed because I was the same way. I always say, “What happens when your mom calls your phone?” [Turns to Jerome and mimics looking at phone screen] and [you] put it away. I always was like, “Ugh, my mom always wants to be the center of attention; she wants this, she wants that. She’s such a this and that.” Then the last few years, when my kids —

Jerome: You became a mom.

Lopez: And I was like, “Oh my God, my poor mom. My whole thing is, how do I make her life easier for the rest of her life? How do I make her happy for the rest of her life? How do I do that? Because this is hard. It’s definitely changed for me, 100%. And everybody tells you that — my mom used to tell me! — “Wait until you have kids!” I had kids, mom. The first, like, 10 years, you’re like, they’re babies, they’re perfect. They love you every day. Now, when they’re teenagers…

Villarreal: But also the performance of [mothers] and not knowing what they were going through during your childhood.

Lopez: That’s a thing. We protect our kids. I’ve been through a lot with my kids. You’re always protecting them. And then you realize they want the truth. They want to know what’s happening. It’s a whole different dynamic than what you think it is. And the more honest and the more truthful and the more guidance you can give them and kind of shepherd them but not control them, and give them routes and give them wings and just give them all the love and support that they need and listen and not try to put your agenda on them, it’s a different thing than what you think. You think, “I have to make sure that they do this and make sure they go to college.” No. You have to make sure they know that you love them and that you’re there for them no matter what, and that you will take responsibility when you make a mistake. Is that how you felt?

Jerome: You just described everything my mother has been able to accomplish as a woman and as a mother. And that’s why I pride my relationship with her because the strength I have, the confidence, the way I move, it all comes from her. I also I believe in myself and I believe in other people because of her. I’ve seen her grow. My mom had me at a very young age. I’ve also watched her be angry for nothing to, now, speaking to me like, “Remember when I was angry for that?” I’ve got to watch her go through therapy and learn [about] herself and learn the reasons she raised me how she raised me in certain ways. That just has me sitting, at this age, like I want to emulate that by the time I’m her age. It also just makes me believe that anybody, it doesn’t matter what age you are, can just learn and grow. It’s like Anthony and Judy are raising each other. Me and my mom raise each other as well. And now I’m in a position of making good money, I could take care of her. I could send her things. I could buy her gifts. And I feel like I’m taking care of her. And it’s a beautiful thing.

Villarreal: So, if you can, call your Mom, everyone.

Jerome: Yeah, I actually missed her call this morning.

Lopez: I’m trying to get my kids to call me. I’m like, let’s make established days, so when they get older. I know they’re going to leave to college soon. They’re 16.

Jerome: I call my mom every day. It’s routine for me. Wait, I’m not going to lie. I don’t call her every day, but we communicate. We say some words to each other, even if it’s “You good?” Even if it’s one message.

Lopez: Or “Mom, bring me my thing when you see me.”

Jerome: Yeah, mac and cheese. I just [text] mac and cheese. She’s like “what?” “I’m coming on Sunday. Mac and cheese.” Stuff like that. Or she’ll send me memes.

Lopez: [laughs] Moms do love to send memes.

Jerome: There’s not a picture of Jen and I that has come out to the public domain that I have not gotten through a text from my mom. She’s like, “This one is nice too. This one’s nice too.” She’s actually a little jealous of Jen. She’s like, “I’m your mom. Just don’t forget that. Don’t forget that, ever.”

Lopez: I do not forget. We do not forget.

Olsen: Mohammad, is it possible for you to separate the story of the movie from the story of its making? Can you talk about one without talking about the other?

Mohammad Rasoulof: It’s very difficult because all of my films, all of my stories relate to living in a totalitarian regime. And so if you take away those circumstances, the story might become perhaps meaningless. And the condition really is such that the censorship and all the pressure put upon artists is always tied together with the work and the stories they tell.

Olsen: Is it ever frustrating for you that so many of the interviews and questions that you get are about your imprisonment, your exile? Do you wish that you could just talk about the film, about your filmmaking, more?

Rasoulof: You can’t quite escape from the fact that I as an artist, but also so many other artists and also the people of Iran at large, live under a repressive regime. And I’ve never been able to get away from my confrontation [with] censorship. The films I make are really closely linked to the reality I live in. And so it is inescapable to talk about these conditions, and therefore also about exile. So no, I don’t get upset about being asked about these conditions.

Olsen: The film opens with a title card that reads, “This film was made in secret. When there is no way, a way must be found.” What does that mean to you?

Rasoulof: However difficult restrictions are, they can also lead to creativity rather than passivity. And of course, I don’t want to celebrate, I don’t want to commend restrictions saying, “Ah, wonderful. I became so creative because of all of those restrictions.” But what I can say is, I think creativity is a better response to restrictions than the lack of hope.

Olsen: Was the inspiration for the story of the film the death of Mahsa Amini, who died in police custody in 2022 after being taken in over not wearing a headscarf.

Rasoulof: I’d been already in prison for a few months and I was indeed in prison in 2022 when the Woman, Life, Freedom movement sparked by the murder of Mahsa Amini began. Which of course is just the last ring in the chain of the struggle for women’s rights in Iran. And it was an incidental encounter with a senior prison official that initially gave me the idea because I thought it would be great, thanks to the story he told to me and the details he gave me about his life, to work on a family where there’s a giant rift between the father, who works, like he did, in the system, the mother, and on the other hand, the children.

Olsen: And can you explain that to me more, the way you’ve distilled down this much larger issue with women in Iran to the simple story of a family, of a father, his wife and his daughters?

Rasoulof: So I think families always represent a reflection of society, and the specificity of dynamics within family relations can illuminate a much wider issue current at a certain time in society. So there’s this initial crisis in the family with the father being promoted. But then there’s a much bigger crisis taking place outside in the streets, and that impacts what happens and how it distances the parents from the children.

This confrontation becomes much more interesting when it is incarnated by on the one hand, the patriarchy, and on the other hand, the defiance, the resistance, the integrity of these incredible young women of the new generation in Iran. And then obviously the film also gradually comes to give us a historical outlook on this ongoing struggle between tradition and modernity in Iran.

Olsen: Did you write the screenplay while you were in prison?

Rasoulof: I always work this way. Stories accumulate, accumulate, accumulate and then they have to burst out. And that’s the moment of their birth and that’s when I have to write them. And the moment of birth of this story took place when I was already out of prison. You could put it this way: That I was pregnant when I was in prison and I gave birth when I came out.

Olsen: I want to be sure to ask about simply the presence of a gun in the story. The father brings a gun into the home from his work. He loses it, he can’t find it. It becomes the main sort of dramatic motivation for the rest of the story. How did you come to want to have that single gun play such a strong role in the story?

Rasoulof: So for me the gun, the weapon, was primarily a reflection and a symbol of power. And what I was wondering is what happens when, in a traditional Iranian family, the father — who of course represents the patriarchy — what happens when he loses power, basically, and his ability to exert power. It’s a battle that we’ve been seeing for a long time in Iranian history, again, between tradition and modernity. But eventually one of them will have to win over the other.

Olsen: In the story, at first the mother in the family sides with the father. But over the course of the story, she comes to defend her daughters and be more on their side. Can you talk about what that meant to to you? I found it so moving, in that it meant there is a bridge between generations, that an older generation can in fact join sides with the people of the younger generation.

Rasoulof: Let’s look at it through the prism of family dynamics and look at her as a traditional mother who’s doing everything in her power, nonstop, to preserve a certain balance within the family. So she’s a very typical kind of Iranian mother that I know very well. Almost like a tightrope walker, really. Always holding this very special balance, at times bending a bit some more to one side, the other times to the other side. But really doing so much to keep the family going.

Olsen: Once shooting began, you were actually not able to be on set. Simply as a filmmaker, how do you deal with that?

Rasoulof: The most difficult thing about making a film in these conditions was being able to maintain a certain level of focus because you were really like someone at sea who is trying to stay afloat but whose hands and legs have been tied.

Olsen: And so when you want to give a note to a performer, maybe make an adjustment to their performance, just practically, how does that happen?

Rasoulof: I had two assistants on set. One was in charge of all the more technical aspects and the other one was in charge of the actors, but also of the set design, the set designer, the makeup, the costumes and so on. So I knew whichever one summoned to me, what aspect of the film I was called upon.

Of course, it didn’t always go well, but usually it worked this way that even if I was at a great geographical distance from the set, I was always following it live on a monitor. And this one time when I was removed —

Interpreter Iante Roach: I’ll just add that the geographical distance Mohammad was from the set kept changing according to circumstances.

Rasoulof: And this one time I was quite far and all of a sudden the voice stops working and they’re setting up a shot. And obviously I didn’t know it, but they couldn’t hear my voice. And so Missagh [Zareh], the actor who plays the father, had to enter the house. So I tell him “Missagh, open the door and come in.” And he does that. Then I said, “No, no. Now you go and close the door.” And he went and shut the door. And then I said, “And now come forward” and he didn’t come forward. And so I say to him again, “Now come forward.” And he doesn’t. And at that point I suddenly realized I’m not there. He’s not hearing my voice, but he happened to be doing the things I was telling him up to one point.

It was a real shock because this was the first of a number of times when this happened. And it was the first time I realized I’m not actually on set, being obviously, of course, used to following a monitor. And so as soon as I realized that was happening, I actually got them to stop filming for about half an hour because I really had to sort of take control back for myself and come to terms of the conditions we were filming under. I should add that when circumstances allowed I directed from a quite small distance and it was great. I had so much fun with the cast and crew.

Olsen: As I understand it, you were partway through production of the film when you found out that you were to receive another prison sentence. How did you decide what to do, how to handle that simply with regards to finishing the film.

Rasoulof: It was very difficult, because on the one hand you’re shooting sequences and on the other hand all you can think about is, “Oh my God, I’ve just gotten a new prison sentence and they can come and get me any time. And if they realize that I’m filming, other years will be added, because that one sentence relates to previous films.” And somehow I managed. I think it’s something we all do when we really need to. We find ways of not thinking about pressing issues in order to concentrate and get on. Because in a way the pressure might have even been worse on my collaborators than it was for me because they all knew that we have to find a way to make do.

So as soon as I received this new eight-year sentence, I immediately contacted my lawyers and I told them, “If we appeal, all in all, how much time will I have?” And they said, “Well, it will take us about 20 days to put through an appeal. Then it will take them a few weeks to register the appeal. Then there are the Persian New Year holidays, which are two weeks.” So altogether I had about two months before the moment arrived where I wouldn’t be able to do anything. So these two months of respite, if you like, allowed us to finish filming. And of course the postproduction had already begun thanks to my very dear friend, the wonderful editor Andrew Bird, who was editing simultaneously as we were shooting. And as you know, internet speed is very low in Iran. So at the end of every day, we sent him the files, low-res files, of what we’d shot that day. And so the editing continued hand-in-hand.

Everything was really quite bizarre and unique. So Andrew, for instance, does not speak Persian, yet he was cutting in Persian. It was very bizarre. You know, of course he did have a very precise script, so if need be, he could get in touch with Persian speakers and say, “I’m really struggling with the sentence, Can you help me?” But yeah, it was weird.

Olsen: And now, at the press conference for the film at the Cannes Film Festival, you spoke about how you were faced with a decision whether to remain in the geographical Iran or to leave and join a larger, cultural Iran. Can you explain that distinction for me and how you came to make the choice that you did?

Rasoulof: As you know, I spent time before in prison and during the time I spent in prison, I really questioned myself. I reflected upon, “What does it mean for me as a filmmaker to be in prison? What does it entail? What can I do?” And I often thought that, were I to receive a long prison sentence, it would translate into me playing out the role of a victim of censorship whose career has been sacrificed and who cannot make films. And I really didn’t want to play that role. And so I thought that, should that happen, the only other way is to leave the country and keep making films.

When I came out of prison, that really stayed with me. And I knew that, as my lawyers had predicted, I probably was due to receive quite soon a prison sentence. But at the same time, I can’t not make films. I’m a filmmaker. And so I wrote the treatment for “The Seed of the Sacred Fig.” And when I got to the end, I told myself, “Oh my God, it’s so ambitious, there’s no way you can actually make this.”

So then I wrote immediately another treatment for a film which all took place in the apartment where I live, which obviously would have been much easier to make. So then I met up with my close friends and collaborators, told them about the two treatments and consulted on them on which one should start sooner. And they all said, “We’ve got to make both of them. But we must begin with ‘The Seed of the Sacred Fig.’”

And so this led us to think, “How can we be very careful so as to be able to actually complete the shoot?” We decided to proceed with a tiny cast and crew, very limited equipment. And with me directing at a certain distance.

I’d thought about the arrival of this moment many times before, but I managed to somehow always defer it in my mind. And so the moment actually arrived and it was the moment where I had to decide to leave. I prepared a very small backpack with just a few clothes, no electronic equipment, and went to the safe house where one of my friends was. When we talk about prison we always illuminate the negative aspects, the difficulties, but everything difficult also brings a certain a silver lining with it. And one of the good things that happened to me this last time around in prison was to meet a series of very interesting people who reassured me that were the day to come that I had to leave Iran illegally, they would help me.

The trip from Iran to Europe took 28 days, thanks to the help of these friends. It was not easy, but it was certainly much easier than it would have been without their help and support. And when I mention the bizarreness, the weirdness of this specific film it also means this. It means, for instance, that I contacted Andrew Bird, the editor, and the rest of the postproduction team in Germany, and I told them, “I’m about to leave the country,” when I decided to leave. “You are not going to hear from me. I don’t know when I will be able to reestablish contact. So I beseech you, whatever happens you’ve got to bring the film to completion and you’ve got to ensure it be seen whether I’m there with you, whether I still am, or whether I’m not. That doesn’t matter. What matters is that the film is finished and be seen.”

So about seven, eight days after reaching the country after Iran, when I was in a safe house, I was finally able to reestablish contact to the postproduction team in Germany. So we sort of resumed our collaboration. They had been working independently, of course. And what’s really interesting is that we had no musical score for the film up to that point, but luckily all came together and we were able to complete it incredibly quickly.

Olsen: And given all you’ve been through to get this film made, to get it out into the world, what has the response to the movie meant to you?

Rasoulof: I find it really incredible that a film that from my point of view has to do with the pain of the people of Iran, can elicit such strong human and universal responses from people who’ve seen it all over the world. I’ve been traveling with the film in many different countries. I’ve sat and watched it with audiences from different languages, from different cultures, and it is really humbling to see how they recognize themselves, find themselves in the film.

And as you know, another strange thing that happened is that Germany decided to submit the film as its own entry for the Academy Awards. And that’s when I came to myself and I said, “I’m sure that all of the filmmakers at the moment across the world working under all sorts of oppression will take this as a positive signal and be reminded that even when everything looks really difficult, there’s always a door that could open. And I’m sure that that will encourage them to do their very best.”

Olsen: Would you still hope to one day return to Iran? And what would have to change for that to happen?

Rasoulof: I don’t really think about what would have to change in Iran in order for me to go back. What I think about is what I’ve got to do now to get my films off the ground. But of course, I do foresee returning and this idea is always with me. I don’t know when or how, but in my mind that I’ll do what I have to do and I will go back to Iran. I am certain that I shall return. I don’t know when that day will be.

Olsen: And the last thing I want to ask you is, given the outcome of the recent elections here in the United States, there’s a lot of fear among journalists and activists about a crackdown on expression here in the United States. What would be your advice to Americans on how to prepare for such a crackdown and how to fight against it?

Rasoulof: It’s very complex because I think that whenever you solve one problem, other problems arise. And of course the results of these elections cannot be separated from the results of previous elections. So really all I can say is that I think regardless of circumstances, we all have to try on a daily basis to make the world a better place and to make life better, to make conditions better for everyone.