In the Oscar-season premiere of The Envelope video podcast, “Wicked” star Cynthia Erivo explains how she and the film’s creative team found the perfect Elphaba green and Saoirse Ronan discusses her two awards contenders, addiction drama “The Outrun” and World War II epic “Blitz.”
Kelvin Washington: Hello, folks. Welcome to The Envelope. I’m Kelvin Washington, joined by a couple of folks I’m sure you know, Yvonne Villarreal and Mark Olsen. As you both know, we are fully in Oscar season, where the buzz starts, and folks are starting to maybe even make some bets about who’s going to do what, what movie’s going to do what. I’ll start with you, Mark. Is there a theme this year? We’ve had #OscarsSoWhite before, we’ve had not enough women being nominated [as] directors. We’ve had things happen where it’s kind of the theme of the season. What are you looking forward to and what do you have your eye on?
Mark Olsen: Well, so far the thing about this season is that it really is wide open. I mean, in a sense, be careful what you wish for. In the past, often people complained that things coalesce so quickly that you kind of know what’s going to get nominated, what’s going to win, and it takes some of the excitement out of it. This year, it feels very wide open. People just do not know what titles are going to be even nominated, let alone what’s going to win. And that’s not just in best picture. That’s across actor, actress, director. And so it really makes this just a much more wide open year than we’ve seen.
Washington: Which makes it interesting. Folks don’t go into it already knowing, “This is going to win” or “He or she’s going to win.”
Yvonne Villarreal: I mean, last year too, you’ll remember — how could anyone forget? — the way “Barbenheimer” really dominated the conversation. I feel like you couldn’t escape it. And this year we have two big blockbusters like “Wicked” and “Gladiator [II],” but they haven’t really sort of taken off in the same way, although both are really good films. Also the lingering effects of the strike and what that posed for this season. So it’s different for sure.
Washington: There is that cloud of the strike for sure. You can feel that whether it just be from the workers, from folks at home who are like, “There’s not as many movies or many blockbusters as I’m used to.” But you all got to spend some time with some people. So I go to you, Mark. Cynthia Erivo, it’s been a great, you know, maybe four or five years for her. You spent some time with “Wicked,” as Yvonne mentioned — which I think “Glicked,” we could have had something. “Glicked”? “Wadiator”?
Villarreal: It doesn’t quite roll off the tongue.
Washington: “Barbenheimer” — which is strange that that flows off the tongue. But your time with Cynthia Erivo, what did you learn? How was it?
Olsen: It was fantastic. This is such an exciting role for her playing Elphaba, who of course becomes the Wicked Witch of the West in “Wicked,” and she talks about the role with just such emotion and earnestness and the way in which she’s forged this real connection with her co-star, Ariana Grande. But then also, one thing I thought was really interesting getting into it was this role really pulls from both her stage background — of course, she was a Tony winner for “The Color Purple” — but then also her screen acting — she’s been an Oscar nominee for “Harriet.” And this role, I think, really combines those two sides of her work and also builds towards where she has to sing the iconic song from the show, “Defying Gravity.”
Villarreal: I just have to say, I saw the film with Mark and he didn’t sing once and I was really disappointed.
Washington: Your reply?
Olsen: I was just being respectful.
Washington: To the film, or to Yvonne’s ears?
Olsen: Both.
Washington: I’ll keep in mind when I’m actually watching if I sing or not and I’ll report back to you, let you know. Let’s go to you. Saoirse Ronan. You have “The Outrun,” you have “Blitz.” What did you learn? What was your time with her like?
Villarreal: In “The Outrun,” she’s a co-producer and she also just gives this stunning portrayal of a woman struggling to get sober. It’s based on a memoir by Amy Liptrot. And just to hear Saoirse, as somebody that has loved ones that have struggled with alcoholism, talk about what sort of drew her to the material was very interesting and touching. And, you know, there’s also, as you mentioned, “Blitz,” which is out now. It’s this epic World War II drama, and she plays a young mother struggling to reunite with her young son. And so it was nice also to hear her as somebody that, you know, came up in Hollywood at a young age in films like “Atonement” and “The Lovely Bones,” talk about how she approached scenes with her young co-star, Elliott Heffernan. So that was fun.
Washington: All right. Without further ado, let’s get into [Mark’s] interview with Cynthia Erivo. And here it is right now.
Olsen: I’m here today with Cynthia Erivo, one of the stars of the new adaptation of “Wicked.” Cynthia, thank you so much for being here.
Cynthia Erivo: Thank you for having me.
Olsen: We’re recording this on the day after the U.S. presidential election. And so in the most genuine way possible, I just want to ask, how are you feeling today?
Erivo: I’m OK. It’s always really shocking. And as an English person who has residency here, I never quite know how to navigate it. But I think this is just an opportunity for us to start figuring out how to come together as human beings and find out how to work together and who knows what could happen.
Olsen: You’ve spoken very powerfully in the past about how so many of the roles that you’ve played in “The Color Purple,” “Widows,” “Harriet,” “Aretha” have been about women who are just fighting for the right to exist. And in some ways, that’s true in “Wicked” as well. What was it like for you to take on a role like that at this level, with this kind of attention already attached to it?
Erivo: I felt a huge responsibility. I always feel that these women are a huge responsibility to take on to play because I know that they speak to so many of us and that they’re, in a way, to encourage us to be as much of ourselves as we possibly can be and to fight for that. But this particular role was particularly important because I know that so many people love her and love this piece. So I really just wanted to try and do her justice. And it’s been the ride of a lifetime, really and truly. And I’ve fallen in love with her. I loved her already. But to be able to play her, she’s sort of stuck in me now.
Olsen: What was your relationship to the show before the role came to you? Had you seen it?
Erivo: I had seen it, yes, plenty of times. But before then, when I was at drama school, a friend and I used to steal away to a little room and he used to play the music. He would grab a bunch of different librettos and “Wicked” was one of them. We would learn the music front to back, and that’s before I’d seen the show. So when I went to the show — on my 25th birthday I took myself on a date, solo — I knew all the music already, like the back of my hand. And when I went to finally see the show, I just remember coming away feeling really inspired and a little bit floaty and really alive, to sort of realize that there’s this role on stage that talks about being in different skin and feeling different and feeling on the outside, but also so much connecting with yourself enough to know that you’re powerful enough to defy gravity.
Olsen: When the role came to you — and I don’t know if you went through something like this with “The Color Purple” — did you have any hesitation because of the fact that it’s so well known and there was going to be so much expectation on it?
Erivo: No hesitation. Maybe I’m a glutton for punishment. I kind of run headlong into the challenges. But I think I was so excited to be able to to sink my teeth into something that was that full. You know, I think these things that come to me, with the work that I’ve put in, come to me for a reason. And so if I was afraid of them, I couldn’t do them any justice. So I try to approach it with care and with the knowledge that it is a big responsibility and understanding this responsibility and trying to make sure that I ready myself enough to take on the responsibility.
Olsen: Given your relationship you already had with the part, where do you begin when you really start working on it?
Erivo: You begin in multiple places, really. Physicality is something that helps me connect mind, body and soul. So I began training because I knew I wanted to do my own stunts. I began training because I knew I needed to have a muscularity in my voice to sing it. It’s a big sing. So I wanted to be ready for that. I sing already, but this is a different size of singing. I have a vocal coach who worked with me on my last project, on “Aretha.” She came with me to this and worked with me on this.
I was lucky enough to have the most amazing script to work from, and when we got to London, we sat with [director] Jon M. Chu and did little readings, little sessions to work through the scenes and work through what we were going to put on stage. I did a lot of flight training, like flying and stunt training, with everyone when I got to London. What else? There was a discussion about makeup. So they really involved me in the look of Elphaba from the very beginning. I was asked whether I wanted CGI green or if I wanted practical green. I chose practical green because I wanted to be able to see the transformation happen, and I wanted other people to see the transformation as well. I thought that was very important. And then we started fine-tuning all the details, the freckles, the eyes. We went through four different contact lens and colors, but we wanted the one that would allow people in more. I communicate a lot with my eyes, and so we had to find the right shade of green. And we didn’t want anything that pushed anyone too far away, but something that was different enough. And we found this green and that was the green. It stuck …
We just workshopped all of the little details. Shoes. [Co-star] Ari[ana Grande] and I always talk about the walking in the character’s shoes. We always need the shoes. And because my shoes were being made for me, I needed something that resembled the feeling of the shoe that I would have eventually. So right at the beginning they found a boot that worked, height-wise, heel-wise. And then when we finally got the shoes, I could wear the shoes whenever we rehearsed so I could feel comfortable in them.
Olsen: What did you discover about her that was new to you?
Erivo: The propensity for loneliness. She had a fragility around her that she never really showed anyone, which I always sort of played with — what that looks like when no one’s looking and what that looks like when she thinks no one’s paying attention. And I loved the idea of how she could comfort herself in her loneliness, how she would play it off. She has this immediate defense mechanism, which is to tell people what she is and what she isn’t from the get-go, because she’s been like this her whole life and just assumes that everyone is asking the same question. And a couple of times that sort of trips her up. So when you first meet her, she gives you the diatribe of, “Yes, I’ve always been green. I didn’t eat grass as a child. I’m not seasick.” And when she meets Fiyero, she says the same thing, but is caught off guard when she realizes he had none of those preconceived notions and didn’t want to ask any of those questions.
I think it’s sort of her defense mechanism — if I get there first, no one can get to it before me. If I already know I’m the butt of the joke, then you can’t joke. Do you see what I’m saying? And I think that’s something that I learned about how she navigates the world. There’s a confidence that she has also in who she is. And I think that sort of happened naturally. I think I just realized she’s been in this skin her whole life. It’s not new. She looks at the mirror every day. This is not the first day she’s been in front of people. This reaction is something she’s probably received several times. And so there was in that a sort of knowing that I didn’t realize was going to come into play. There’s a part of it that sort of settled into, “This is what I am and I have to be OK with it.”
Olsen: Your performance, there’s something so just emotionally raw about it. And to me, it was startling to see that in this fantastical world, even given the sort of upbeat nature of musical theater. Was that something that was important to you? Was it difficult to have that sense of just real emotional rawness and truth even in this fantastical world?
Erivo: Thank you for saying that. I guess what I was trying to do is be really, really truthful. And in those situations, the only thing I knew to do was to allow myself and the character to respond to what I was given. So to respond to the input from outside. If someone says, “I want to help you fix the problem” and the problem is a thing you’ve lived with your whole entire life, immediately something ticks in you. So I just was trying to be as honest and truthful as I could in every situation and some situations required laughter, some situations required deep internal thought and hurt. And to allow that to show. I guess I also wanted people to see this green, larger-than-life character in her humanity. So more than just the 2D idea of a person, but like a fully realized being who has feelings and thoughts and experiences, but happens to walk through the world in a different skin.
Olsen: People react to Elphaba based on the color of her skin, based on what makes her different. And simply casting you in that role, a queer Black woman, how does that make that part resonate in a different way?
Erivo: I think it resonates because I know what it’s like to walk into a room and have everyone go, “OK.” I know what it’s like to be the Other in the room or the only one in the room. And that experience was quite close to the bone. And I think there’s this wonderful opportunity to marry both experiences together and allow what my experience is to come through her. I understand what it feels like to feel different, to feel like you don’t fit. And so I was actually really grateful for the opportunity to play a role like this that would allow, I guess, a little bit of healing, a little bit of understanding, a little bit of reckoning with the things that I’ve sort of walked through, the experiences that I’ve had and the times when I’ve had to navigate a room that doesn’t necessarily want me there. And I think hopefully it’ll speak to a lot of people who feel like they are othered and they feel like they don’t quite fit in the rooms that they walk into, Black or otherwise, to be honest. But yes, as a Black woman, a Black queer woman, it felt kind of kismet.
Olsen: Are you talking about those kinds of things, the sort of larger meaning of some of these moments, with Jon Chu or with your co-star Ariana Grande? What are those kind of conversations like?
Erivo: Honest, really honest. And lots of understanding happening. And I think Jon, I think Jon kind of saw that already in me. I think he saw the vulnerability and the experiences that I’d already had when I walked into the room for an audition. And has every single day and every day he dealt with me with real care and understanding. And Ari the same. We’ve always been having these conversations. They’re always growing. And I think it’s allowed us to have a really honest, beautiful, connected relationship because we can talk about the things that are difficult, things that I’ve experienced in that way and we are constantly talking about when we talk about this because how can you not.
Olsen: You presented at the Tony Awards earlier this year with Idina Menzel, who of course, originated the part. Did you talk to her or consult with her at all before shooting?
Erivo: I did a little bit, mainly to just make sure that … it’s like you want to, you have to — I feel like when you do something like this and someone has originated a role and has made it what it is, I felt like it was really important to connect with her. I felt like it was really important to say, “Hey, I want to say thank you for doing this.” And also, “This is what’s happening” and connecting. And she was just really kind. Before I started shooting, she told me to just have a really good time, have fun and do whatever I need. She was like, “I’m happy this is you doing this because I can trust that it’s in good hands.” Which meant a lot to me. And from then on [she] has been really lovely and really supportive. And at the Tonys, she said that wonderful thing, which I didn’t know she was going to say, which is why I had no response except for “I love you” when she said what she said. And since then, she’s seen the film and sent the most amazing, wonderful voice notes to just be encouraging. And she was really loving and really pleased with what she’d seen and very proud of it. And the fact that she is taking the time to be so encouraging, it’s wonderful. To be a part of that legacy, to be sort of like the grandkid of the person who’s created that and is still there to be supportive, is really wonderful.
Olsen: I have to go back to something you said earlier that I keep thinking about, that you had the option to have digital green instead of makeup green. And it’s funny to hear you say that because the whole time I was watching the movie, I was like trying to, like, suss out which it was. I wasn’t sure because the makeup effects are so good, so well done.
Erivo: It’s all practical. There are no effects on my face at all. It’s all practical. We found the perfect green to work with my skin tone. We fixed those freckles on as well. I remember we created a vacuum form to match my face. So it’s like a see-through Perspex mask that we poked the holes in to keep the freckles in the right place every day. So once we discovered where we wanted them, we then created the mask so that we could keep them in exactly the same place. Eyes were practical. I put contact lenses in every single day. So it was a 12-hour day with lenses and hair, [which] was done really beautifully. My whole head was sprayed so that when the hair moved you could see my scalp and it would be green. Hands were green, palms were green. That was not CGI, as we found a gel for the palms so that the palms would show through, but it would still be green. And we used a cream for the hands, which was slightly different to the face, which was in an alcoholic airbrush sort of material. And the shades were shaded as well. So I had an amazing makeup team, an amazing, patient, wonderful makeup artist and hairstylist team who worked with me two hours, 45 [minutes] to four hours every morning before we got on set to make me green.
Olsen: Was there a moment for you — whether it was once the makeup got done or the first time you put on the hat or the broom — when it really clicked for you, like, “This is happening”? Like you really felt it all came together?
Erivo: I think it was like a makeup test just one day where we wanted to try everything together. So we had the hair, we had the makeup, we had the hat. And that was the day. And it was like, “This is going to work. If anything, this will look right.” And that was the day it clicked for me. Actually, a little earlier than that, we did a camera test. It was when we were testing the lenses. We had green on and it wasn’t even the complete green, but it was sort of testing a green to see what the camera would do with the color of the skin. We had the green on and we were testing out contacts and we found the contact, the right contact lenses. It sort of came immediately together. It was like, “This is going to work when everything is together. This will be right.” And every time I saw myself in the mirror, it was like, “Oh, my goodness.”
Olsen: I have to say, I know it’s a plot point in the story that the hat is supposed to be this sort of grandma’s disaster of a hat, but it looks so cool. And you can’t imagine anybody not thinking it was a great hat.
Erivo: Well, she loves it. Elphaba loves that hat. I really do think that it’s one of those things for her. It’s almost like a talisman, like a really powerful emblem for her, which it does eventually become the pointed hat for the witch. And we worked on that hat endlessly. So there are many versions of the hat. There’s the very first version, which is the accordion, and then there’s the version which is solid for me. And in the next film, it grows again. It’s the same, but you’ll see that it is more embellished and becomes a little bit different. Yeah, I was very attached to that hat.
Olsen: And now I have to be sure to ask you simply about the song “Defying Gravity.” First of all, why do you think that song has become so iconic? I mean, it is the signature song of the show.
Erivo: I think it’s become so iconic because of the content and because of the lyric too. To be able to say, “I’m defying gravity, I’m not allowing anything to keep me down,” that’s a really powerful concept. It’s a really powerful thing to be able to say, to sing. And it’s sort of a proclamation to oneself that there’s nothing in the universe that will stop you from flying, rising. Whether that’s philosophically or practically in Elphaba’s case, I think that to be able to say those words is a really powerful thing. And I think that so many people need to say it for themselves. And I think that’s probably what makes it so powerful.
Olsen: As a performer, do you approach a song like that essentially the same way that you would a scene? How do you find your way into a song like that?
Erivo: I think the song is set in beautiful stages, so you have that. The beginning of it is a realization. She has to work through what she wanted and what she now wants. Then in that first sort of chorus, where it’s quieter, more pianissimo, “I’m defying gravity. I think it’s time to defy gravity,” she’s not quite sure. And then makes the decision, “and you can’t bring me down.” And then that song builds to a real roar, a real dedication, a real shout that, “This is what I want. And if you want to find me, you have to look up there. That’s where I’m going to be.” And I think to work on it, you do work on it like a scene, you work on the journey of where, because she doesn’t get there immediately. And that’s how we state it in this film. She doesn’t fly immediately. She falls. And then she has to figure out how to fly. And that’s the journey you have to take in that song. And you just work through it and you figure out what it is you’re trying to say in each beat. Even if the words are repeated, they mean something different the next time you say them.
Olsen: And you have an additional challenge here in that you’re doing this while flying.
Erivo: In a harness. In a corset.
Olsen: Exactly. So how does that impact your breathing? How does that impact your singing?
Erivo: In many ways. Because when you’re singing a song like that that needs power, usually you have the ground underneath you. But I was hoisted in the air on wires in a harness. I’m lucky, I have an amazing vocal coach who helped me sort of find out where to place force and where to place the breath. Because you have to find out where you’re going to put breath and where you’re going to hold yourself as you’re moving, as you’re being held, as you’re flying. Which is not an easy feat. It is difficult. And the first time you do it, it’s a completely out-of-body experience because you have to marry both things up at the same time. What the voice is doing and what the body is doing and they’re going in different directions. But when you find out what the balance is and you finally manage to make it work, you finally make the breath work with your body movement and then you make the song and the sound work, it’s a really thrilling feeling. It takes a couple of goes, but when you get there, it feels wonderful.
Olsen: Does it ever feel natural?
Erivo: After a while it did. After a while, it felt natural. Whenever we would get into it, the first go always felt sort of odd. But the second and third, then it started to feel, “Oh, I know what this is. This feels like home. I can figure this out.”
Olsen: The song also includes the moment that’s known as Elphaba’s battle cry. That is such an iconic moment, even within the song. Do you get intimidated by that? Is that just sort of like, that’s the work? You’ve got to nail that moment. How do you kind of get yourself there?
Erivo: When we were rehearsing it, [music director] Stephen Oremus and [composer] Stephen Schwartz sort of gave me the permission to find my own war cry. I didn’t realize, but there’s a law that says that each of these Elphaba’s figure out their war cry. And so I did it as was written. And then he was like, “And now what would you do? What’s your version?” And I tried something. And when I tried that, it felt the most natural. And that’s what came of it. You can’t be nervous. There’s a moment where you’re like, “Is this going to be right? Will this work? I’ll try.” And then you sort of let go and go with it.
Olsen: Apart from your work on “Wicked,” you are also currently vice president of the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. And earlier this year, you spent part of a day with King Charles and [Queen] Camilla. What was that like?
Erivo: It was lovely, actually. It was a good day, because we sat and watched some of the students work. There was a play that we got to sit and watch and we got to meet some of the technical students as well. It was a good day for me to be able to get to know some of the students and meet Queen and King Charles as well. That was a cool day because it was sort of like one of those very official, “Oh, this is also my job” days. Which is a very different world. But I felt very proud that day just because this is a school I went to and to be in this situation full circle was a really wonderful moment.
Olsen: Both in shooting and especially as you’ve been promoting the film, it seems as if you and Ariana Grande have a very special and genuine bond and friendship. Has that been surprising to you?
Erivo: I don’t think it surprised me. I think I’ve been moved by how much we’ve grown together. We found a connection almost immediately, when we knew we were going to be doing this together. We immediately were like, “How do we meet before we get on this ride?” She came over to my house and we sat on my floor and chatted for hours. And then we met up again at Jon’s house, and that was the first time we’d sung together. So then we realized our voices also work together. It’s a very intimate, vulnerable thing to be able to do with another person, which is to sing. And I think from that moment on, our relationship has grown and grown and grown and we’ve fostered and allowed for a really honest, caring relationship. We talk to each other every day, from the moment we were doing this film to today. And I think that has allowed us to really take care of each other on this crazy, wonderful ride that we’re on. And also it meant that we could really connect when we were on this film.
Olsen: In another interview, I saw you say that you wanted maybe to one day host the Tony Awards. I’m going to go ahead and put this out there: How about you and Ariana hosting the Oscars?
Erivo: That could be cool. I’m into it. I like the job of hosting. Actually, I think it’s fun. For me, it was fun because I think it’s unexpected, you know what I mean? And I think it can play around with what I can and cannot do in those situations.
Olsen: As much as we’ve been talking about “Wicked: Part One,” there is “Wicked: Part Two” coming again in a year. What is it like for you knowing you’re going to have to go through this whole promotional cycle again, that there’s a whole secret movie that people want to know about? What is it like just having “Part Two” in your pocket right now?
Erivo: It feels really good. I’m glad we’ve done it. We filmed it. It’s not ready, but it’s in the can. I’m really excited. I’m actually very excited to do this again because it’s a different feeling. There’s a different tone to it. And I think it will surprise the watcher in the best possible way. So I’m looking forward to being able to speak about “Two” more when we get to it. I’m excited.
Olsen: Even fans of the musical seem a bit unsure of what is in “Two” or what “Two” will be like.
Erivo: It’ll have a different tone to “One.” Rightfully so, because they grow up and they’re in a different part of their lives now. But I do think there’s something quite special about “Two.” Really special.
Olsen: There have been some rumors that there were going to be new songs in “Two.”
Erivo: I’m not saying anything because I don’t want to get into trouble. When we get to “Two,” you’ll know.
Villarreal: It’s a big fall for you. You have two films that are really getting some attention. The first is the addiction drama “The Outrun,” and then we have the historical drama, “Blitz.” I want to first start with “The Outrun.”
You discovered Amy Liptrot’s memoir, which is this really impactful portrait of alcohol addiction and recovery, thanks to your husband Jack Lowden. I know that you said you felt this personal connection [to it] as someone that has watched people you’re close to struggle with alcoholism. Talk to me about what Amy’s book ignited in you that made you feel ready to explore those themes or ideas on screen.
Saoirse Ronan: I think she humanized the addiction story for me. She injected poetry and life and a raw reality into her writing. And I’d never read anything so unique before. So even before we thought about potentially adapting this for the screen, just as a piece of literature, it’s very unusual. And yes, as I’ve said, it’s been a particular illness that has really shaped who I am and has caused a lot of pain in the way it has for so many others. And I think I’ve spent most of my life kind of demonizing it and choosing not to understand it because the easier thing for me was to just be angry at it. And so I think being at this point in my life where I felt very supported and safe in my personal life and inspired and was part of a professional and personal team where we could pursue something that could potentially be quite triggering and painful and do the book justice by turning it into something beautiful — it just felt like an opportunity not to be missed, really.
Villarreal: What were your conversations like with Amy as you started to discuss bringing this to the screen? What were you interested in hearing straight from her?
Ronan: So much of it is in the book. She lays so much of it out in terms of that internal experience and the chaos and the destruction. To be honest, initially, I still wanted to be very sensitive to the fact that this is someone who, she’s been sober for a certain amount of years, but it’s still relatively fresh going. And it’s ongoing. And it will be forever, which is exactly what we see in the movie. So I wanted to be sensitive to that and respectful of that, and I’d never push her too far. But I guess what I was most curious [about] was her relationships at that time in her life — with her parents, with her partner. Our version of her boyfriend is sort of an amalgamation of a few different relationships that she had in that time. And [I was] just really asking her about that and her emotional state when she was in rehab and when she moved into recovery straight afterwards. There were pieces of information that she gave me about that time, which was [about how] you’ve repressed emotion for so long, which is why you take this drug. You’re trying to quiet down the noise and trying to block out all of the voices. And, so, when you take that away, all of that comes flooding back. She said that when she was in rehab, she was just crying every day, all the time. So having little things like that that I could just hold on to that would help me pitch the performance in those moments was really, really helpful. But we all kind of agreed between myself, Amy and Nora [Fingscheidt, who co-wrote and directed the film] very early on that it was really important that by renaming the lead character, that was just going to give us some healthy distance from one another and allow this to become an evolution of Amy in the book.
Villarreal: A lot of what we see from your character comes through in what isn’t said, and it’s so painful and poignant to watch. There’s glimpses of grace too. The film opens with your character Rona at maybe one of her worst moments, in this drunken state at the bar. What feelings did you want to convey in a scene like that?
Ronan: You know what was interesting about that scene? And this will shock people. It was really important to me that, if we were going to have eight to 10 different drunk scenes or drunk sequences throughout the movie, that they all sort of had their own identity and they were all there for a reason. We never wanted to just repeat the same beat again and again and [wanted to] sort of almost simplify what it is to be drunk, especially when you are an alcoholic. It can take so many different forms and show itself in so many different colors. I wanted to really tap into that. With that scene, in particular, I sort of channeled the “Bridemaids” scene on the plane, which I know sounds wild, but it was important to have these moments with Rona where she’s tragic but there’s almost like this comedic element to her, like she’s trying to be funny and she’s loving what she’s sort of bringing in that scene. I didn’t want it to just be dark, depressing and, for me, as the character, to be aware of the tragedy of this. So I was actually playing that scene almost like I was channeling that particular “Bridesmaids” scene, but a very sort of like messed up, dark version of that. I’m sure you [feel] the same — the alcoholics that I have known growing up, they will have moments where they are great.
Villarreal: It’s like, you can’t help but laugh. And it’s frustrating.
Ronan: It’s frustrating! Or they’ll say something funny or so shocking that you end up kind of laughing in spite of yourself. And then there’s that turn. So we really needed to make sure that we showed all of the sort of facets of an alcoholic when they’re in that state. So, with that scene in particular, that’s just sort of what started to come out. And I worked with Nora a lot on that, but also Jack Lowden and I kind of built that performance together, especially in those scenes. We would speak a lot about what feels right for this and what could we bring to it that we haven’t seen before.
Villarreal: Tell me more about your approach to capturing the pain and the torment that’s going on internally of a character like this, as someone that’s been on the other side observing it.
Ronan: I’m very aware, all too aware, of the pain that it brings about. Because you’re a part of it, you’re not just a bystander; you’re usually receiving abuse and you’re having to handle the situation as best you can when that person really doesn’t want to comply. But also, you are always going to have a clearer image of what that night was like than they ever will, which is another moment that we play in “The Outrun,” where she has no idea what she did the night before, but she’s sorry and she’ll never do it again. There’s such clouded judgment and no contact with reality. And so actually, in a way, because I haven’t been through that directly myself, but I have seen it firsthand, incredibly vividly, I could remember it all and I knew what bit I wanted to bring out. I think I sort of mentally took note of all the memories that I’ve had that really hurt me and that really felt like the person I was watching was shifting and this nasty side of them was coming out. People who are struggling with this addiction and the ones who are in recovery [that] have spoken about the film have said, “Thank you for bringing to light this illness in all of its shapes and forms,” because that’s the only way that you can do it justice. We didn’t want to make a blanket statement on the whole thing. So it was really important to find those moments of nastiness.
Villarreal: Was it difficult getting into the mindset of an addict? Did you find it healing or revelatory for you?
Ronan: It was all of that, really. Even speaking about it now, it’s sad. It makes me sad. But I knew why I wanted to make the film. I wanted to make it because I needed to make it. Amy wrote this book because she needed to write this book. I think anyone who came onto this project and anyone who has gone to see the movie since it’s come out has needed to see that film. And I would never say that usually about a movie that I’ve made. But it does feel incredibly important to put a story on the screen where people feel like their story is truly being told from all sides. So it’s been an overwhelming experience, but beautifully cathartic. And I think that even though we had this section that’s incredibly chaotic and dark, but also really fun with the stuff that I was getting to do performance-wise, to then sort of gradually let go of that throughout the shoot when we went to Orkney mainland after the London section, that was sort of this period where you’re just plodding along and it felt like myself and the crew mirrored that. By the time we got to Paapa [Essiedu], at the end of the shoot, that was just a moment for us to heal. And we really did. So it was a gift having this project.
Villarreal: Was there a scene or a specific moment or interaction that was hard for you or difficult or required you to sort of come down from it after?
Ronan: Yes, the scene between myself and Paapa Essiedu, who plays Daynin; when he’s had this really important day at work and we’ve gone out to celebrate afterwards and I just wrecked the whole night. And in the flat afterwards, he starts to pour all the booze down the sink, which I’ve heard so many people do just out of desperation, even though you know it’s not going to make a difference. But you’re just clutching at different ways to make it stop. Emotionally and physically, I really had to go to that place of hysteria and desperation; she’s just on her last legs. That was the only point, I think, where I needed to take a moment away from set. But we were very, very lucky that we worked in an environment on that set that felt very supportive and incredibly safe and so it never felt like I was being pushed further than was necessary.
Villarreal: Screenwriter and director Nora Fingscheidt helped adapt the memoir for the screen. English is her second language, so she sort of approached the script loosely, in terms of the dialogue, which meant that you had to contribute a lot of the lines that we hear from Rona. That’s not the norm. And typically, as a performer, you’re sort of tasked with getting into the mind of a character through the dialogue given to you. What that was like, finding your way into her mindset while simultaneously finding her voice?
Ronan: What I’ve always really loved about making films and working on brilliant scripts is that there’s incredible dialogue that has been written for you and you can just completely sort of crack it open and indulge in it and find your way through it and find the sort of musical beats of it as you go. And I’ve always really, really loved the specificity of that, without anything ever feeling like you’re being restrained, but there’s parameters that you’re working within. So I was very much willing to work in this [new] way, but I was unsure of how successful we were going to be in making it dramatically accurate. And I said that to Nora. And so, because of that, we would sit down and we would have five-hours-long script meetings where she was brilliant and she would really encourage me to put things into my own words and flesh them out. The next stage of that would be when we were actually on set, having the freedom to just go off on one [take] if you needed to. That meant that we would sometimes do more takes than you would in a traditional way of working because you were finding your way through it. But then you got this clarity, especially if it was myself and Paapa or myself and Saskia [Reeves, who plays Rona’s mother Annie]; you were sort of self-editing as you were going along. Actually, that was another reason why it was just the best project for me to do at that time, because I was so ready to take on more responsibility as a filmmaker. I’ve been doing it for, like, 22 years now, and I couldn’t just step foot onto a set anymore [with someone saying], “Here you go — this is what you’re going to wear; that’s where you’re going to stand.” And shockingly, that still happens to actors, which I don’t get. But it’s definitely given me the confidence to actually bring some of my own input to a project and to the character development in a way that I don’t think I had before.
Villarreal: Was there a line or a piece of dialogue that you found came easily or with difficulty?
Ronan: I’m sure there [were] loads of lines that didn’t feel right on the day, but I’d just be like, “I’m not going to say it like that” or I would just say it differently because we had so much flexibility in what we were doing. And also the accent that I developed was like a combination of an Orcadian, an Edinburgh, an English accent; it was a sort of an amalgamation of all these different sounds, but it felt like it was coming from me. It was the most similar to my voice, I think, that I’d ever found in a character. I think what was really great is that I had enough agency to be able to choose in the moment what felt right, which I think just meant — and I feel like any actor would experience this — it opened something up for me in terms of the performance. I would say, objectively speaking, it’s a performance that I’ve never given before. I was able to sort of stretch so much more because I was kept so alert by the job at hand. I wasn’t ever passive, I wasn’t ever mindless in what I was doing. I didn’t go on autopilot. It was great.
Villarreal: Part of your preparation involved attending an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, which is such an intimate thing to observe. You’re watching and you’re hearing people share stories of some of their worst moments. What did that experience do for you?
Ronan: I went with a friend who held my hand the whole time. It was very nerve-racking for me to go after spending so many years hating the addiction so much. And being totally honest, hating anyone who — or not hating, but really pushing against anyone who had been going through it. Because I still didn’t understand, at that stage: “Why can’t you just stop? Why can’t you stop for me, for all of these people, for your life? I don’t get it.” Which, of course, the movie taught me is very unfair to ask anyone who’s an addict to do that. So actually stepping into that environment, I felt a barrier go up for the first little while and then to just see — it was all men that were in the room — to see their faces and all their different ages and backgrounds. And some of them would speak, some of them wouldn’t, but they all showed up and probably nobody knew that they were there, or very few did, but they showed up and I admired them so much for that. I felt guilty that I was there, in a way. I didn’t want to feel like I was taking that for granted and all, but it was incredibly admirable to see the strength that it clearly took some of them to go. And then I started to think like, “God, I wonder who’s here for the first time.” It’s the toughest meeting when you’ve never been before and you finally find the courage to go. And that’s quite fascinating about AA, in particular, that you don’t really know anything that they don’t want to tell you. So, yeah, it was a really interesting experience.
Villarreal: What did you hold on to? How did it shape Rona for you?
Ronan: The thing about Rona and Amy is that she has gone to AA and Rona has gone to meetings, but the presence of of God and religion is a big turnoff for a lot of people, which I understand if you’re not religious. Amy is not and Rona is not. So as helpful as it was to be in that room, it was also equally helpful to go, “OK, well, this isn’t the environment necessarily that she found her solace in” and that’s why the rehab group, which is comprised of 10 to 12 different people who are actors who are in recovery themselves, that was the most enlightening experience. And I did most of my rehearsals with them and with Amy. And we’d have a circle and we’d talk about our experiences. And again, that was incredibly surreal for me to be with people who had actively suffered from this addiction or other types of addiction themselves. And I hadn’t, but I had seen it and there was a real sense of community. Again, I think that’s why I wanted to bring humorous moments into the performance. It was the sort of situation where if you don’t laugh, you’ll cry sometimes. They would talk about things that were so awful and so belittling. There was no other option but to just go, “Life is insane and aren’t we all a mess? Let’s be a mess together.” There was a real beauty and a kind of a lightness in that, actually.
Villarreal: You talked earlier about reaching this stage in your career where you want to have a little bit more active presence or role in the work that you do. You’re producer on this film. What did that illuminate for you about the filmmaking process?
Ronan: That there’s a lot that’s kept from actors. There’s a lot we don’t know. You would have no idea. There are so many moving parts behind the scenes, especially with independent film. Every single day you’re just not sure if you’re going to make it or not. You’re constantly trudging forward, not knowing where this is going to get you. It just made me fall in love with independent cinema even more because, also, usually the crew that you’re working with are people who only usually work in independent film and they just have this get up and go, “I’m going to get my hands dirty” [work ethic]. No one was doing it for the money. They were all there for the love of it or because they just wanted to be part of that experience. It was really wonderful to have that image of this environment solidified for me. It’s really just made me want to direct. Greta [Gerwig] had said to me years ago, “If you want to get ready to become a director, sit in on the prep because that development stage and that really early prep, when you’re just sort of piecing everything together, is the trickiest bit.” And it is because you just don’t know if the movie is going to get made or not. There’s so much that’s still up in the air. It’s made me kind of find my voice, I think, a little bit more as a filmmaker.
Villarreal: Were you texting her a lot during this process?
Ronan: No, because she was doing “Barbie.” She was doing a very different movie down in London, which I was supposed to be in. And I couldn’t because I was like, “I’m going to do this thing.” But no, she was very much in a pink, fluffy “Barbie” world. And I was like on the ground in Hackney with bruises all over my face. But she always helps me a lot. I’m always looking to her for advice.
Villarreal: After completing something with such heavy themes and subject matter, does it change what you want to do next, project-wise?
Ronan: I actually really wanted to go on to something else that didn’t demand quite as much from me. It was really a relief to go onto the set like six weeks later where none of the onus was on me to make it work. And in terms of being a producer, I would look at [“Blitz” producer] Tim Bevan and the other producers and they’d be having really serious conversations in the corner and I was like, “I know what that’s like now. I get it now.” Sometimes I’d take them aside and be like, “I get it. I’m never going to cause you grief unless I really need to.” They were like, “You do? You get it? Thank you.” It’s definitely given Jack and I the confidence to continue to make our own stuff, especially seeing the reaction to it. If your movie is starting to do well and people are connecting to it, that obviously is going to give you the confidence to keep going. It reaffirms that if you just follow your gut and listen to what inspires you and the tastes that you have, you can’t go too far wrong. It may not always be a big commercial success, it may not get a bunch of awards, but the fact that this is connecting with so many people in the way it did for us, it’s made us go, “OK, well, what else do we connect to? What else do we want to help make?”
Villarreal: Let’s talk more about this other film that you went off to make afterwards, which is “Blitz,” Steve McQueen’s film. I know you were hesitant about doing a World War II drama. What was that hesitancy and what did Steve say that changed your mind?
Ronan: I was only hesitant in the sense that I, for the most part, have seen films set during the Second World War that are either a gorgeous, almost glamorous romance or it’s on the battlefield and it’s very much following the boys, which I love. I think the depictions of the war over the last few years in cinema have been so interesting and have turned that story on its head a little bit and help to see it from a new perspective. But for me, as a female actor, I just always assume that if you are the one at home, then they’re not really going to follow you. Steve said to me as soon as I spoke to him, “No, no, no. This story is about home. It’s about community. It’s about the people that are left behind that have to keep the country going. That worked just as hard, that felt just as much fear, that didn’t have escapism in a way. They were forced to stare that reality in the face every single day.”
I was always going to do it because it’s Steve. So it wasn’t “Hmm, I don’t know. Convince me, Steve.” But when he spoke to me about how the heart of this film was going to be the relationship between a little boy and his mother, and that that is the love story, that was just music to my ears. Because even with the stuff that I would love to make myself, that parent-child relationship is so precious to me because of my relationship with my mother. And to get to that as a, at the time, 28-year-old woman and draw from my own experiences and my own bond with her and actually to work with a young actor having come from that myself, it just felt so right. And the element of the music being the savior for Londoners at that time, I just found that so interesting. He was always going to do something fresh with it. But I think he really wanted this film to be entertaining as well, and to have heart. And he wanted to make like a sort of Spielberg-esque Charles Dickens-tale film. And he really, really did.
Villarreal: For our viewers, the film follows a 9-year-old boy who is evacuated to the countryside by his mother, Greta, played by you, to escape the bombings. It really tracks their journey of being reunited. Can you expand a little bit more about playing a mother facing that dilemma and getting into that primal instinct and the fear of what she’s facing? What intrigued you about that?
Ronan: It is the strongest bond that two humans can have with each other — a child and their mother. I have been lucky enough to be given a mother who would kill for me and who has been in environments where so many people around me will try and veer me in one direction, and her sole purpose, really, for a long time was to just keep me safe and on the straight and narrow — that was her life. And that needed to change, for her, at a certain point, but that’s quite an incredible thing to expect another human to do for a child, for anyone to completely give yourself to that person, especially when Rita was so young. She has George when she’s a teenager, essentially. And her love is taken from her. She’s gone through so much pain and so much loss early on. And I found that anyone I know who’s really gone through tragedy, they have a smile on their face far more than anyone else. They have this strength and this element to their personality; it’s not indulgent, it’s not precious, they just get on with it. There was something about that that I was really interested in. And because of the time period, you could really lean into that [idea of], “Just keep on keeping on.” I wanted to honor mothers. It’s the most incredible role, whether you choose to become a mother or not, the change to your life, to your body, to your mind that that experience makes is something that I just don’t think we see enough in cinema. And it’s fascinating.
Villarreal: You also sing in the film. It’s not the first time you’ve sung. You did “Tell Me” for “Lost River,” which was also used in an episode of “Killing Eve.”
Ronan: Oh, it was. Yeah, I had heard that.
Villarreal: Why haven’t we had a Saoirse album? Any plans for starring in a musical or anything like that?
Ronan: I would love to be in a musical. I would love for Greta to write it and direct, obviously. And I think that would be really fun. I’m just waiting for someone to do it. Or maybe I should just do it because I’m a producer now. It was actually the main prep that I had for [“Blitz”] — doing singing lessons with this amazing vocal coach called Fiona McDougal. And because Steve doesn’t do a lot of rehearsals, that was actually my way into the character for a long time. There was music being written by Nick Patel that was completely original, but it was written and it was to be performed in the style of the time. All of that was just really interesting. We got to record in Abbey Road, myself and Paul Weller [who plays Rita’s father Gerald] and Elliott [Heffernan, who plays Rita’s son George] — we got to have these moments together that, for me at least, and I think probably for Elliott as well, not for Paul, but we’re very vulnerable. I get incredibly nervous when I sing. And so to have to share the space with other people that you don’t know and put yourself out there like that, I think it really bonded the three of us. It was a great tool. And [helped build] our family dynamic, I think.
Villarreal: I want to talk more about your young co-star, Elliott Heffernan. He just gives a beautiful performance. As we all know, you started in this industry really young and a lot of the films in those early years tackled adult themes. How did those experiences inform the way you wanted to approach your time on “Blitz” with Elliott?
Ronan: What I have always taken with me along the journey is the people that I met along the way when I was a child who took the time to take care of me, to have a life with me, to support me, to just be like brothers and sisters to me, essentially. I’ll never forget that. And I feel incredibly fortunate. I think, unfortunately, I’m one of the few that has had this experience where I had a really wonderful time growing up. I had a wonderful upbringing on film sets. A lot of that, I’m sure, was to do with the fact that I had just an incredible person taking care of me who was my mother. So I was well protected in that way. But I was working with people like James McAvoy, Juno Temple. I met Ryan [Gosling] actually when I was really young. We were going to do “Lovely Bones” together at one stage. Rachel Weisz, Susan Sarandon, Bill Murray — all of these people, they looked out for me. I also worked with other people that didn’t want anything to do with me. So I know the impact that that can have on a kid because, at that stage, it’s not your job, it’s not work — it’s fun and it’s like nothing you’ve ever experienced. And it’s kind of something that nobody can tarnish for you. But it’s certainly made so much better when you’ve got really fun people that you get to work with. The one thing that I didn’t have was someone who had been a child actor who had to do three hours of tutoring a day and knew about the torture of being dragged away from set to go and do that. And the pressure and what’s expected of you when you’re leading a movie at like 9, 10, 11 years old. So I think I appreciated that and had an understanding of it in a way that nobody else did. I just wanted Elliott to feel like he had an ally, I suppose. What was brilliant about that, especially after coming off of “The Outrun,” I wasn’t in every day, I wasn’t the lead. Elliott was definitely leading the show. So I felt my work sometimes came second, my performance came second to just making sure that Elliott had what he needed. But that in turn will have informed the performance anyway. I think we all feel like we’ve struck gold with Elliott because he’s just incredible.
Villarreal: Is there a moment that stands out of some of the people that you mentioned — of them being the ally or protecting you or even remembering that you’re still a kid and playing with you on set?
Ronan: I’m just remembering now, also, Guy Pearce was amazing with me and Catherine Zeta-Jones. Guy would always bring his guitar with him and I’d sit with him while he’d play his guitar. Bill had this trailer — we did this film called “City of Ember” years ago. I was 12. And Bill used to exclusively play Van Morrison in his trailer when he wasn’t like on a golf buggy, which I don’t know where he got it from. We were in Belfast, but he had this golf buggy that he’d drive around. He is a big kid and he’s still a big kid. And so he was just so fun to be around. I used to just hang out with him and we’d listen to music. Juno was about five years older than me, so I just idolized her for years. And I think it was actually even more impressive that a 16-year-old took me under her wing when that’s the time where you want to flirt with people and be cool. I’m sure she did that as well, but she also took the time to be pals with me, just talk about girl stuff and things that I haven’t done yet. And I was like, “What does that mean?” I saw Benedict Cumberbatch a couple of years ago — I feel like a lot of them came from “Atonement” — and we hadn’t seen each other since “Atonement” and straight away I just felt such a kinship with him and it was lovely.
Villarreal: You were acting from a very young age, like maybe 7 or 8. And I know your dad is an actor. Did it just feel like the obvious or natural path for you to take?
Ronan: No, it didn’t at all. I was a pretty quiet kid, so I was pretty shy. And I loved making my own films and I loved to perform when it was a school play or whatever. But I wasn’t a showy drama kid or anything like that. My mum put me into drama school at one stage and I hated it because it was all sort of like jazz hands and I wasn’t there yet. I hadn’t found my way through that yet. It was just always something that Dad did, but it was just his job. So I never thought of it as something that I would necessarily get into. The only reason I did is because he was doing a short movie when we moved back to Dublin and they just needed a kid for the day. And so he was like, “Cool, here’s one.” So I did it, but I hesitantly went into it. As soon as I stepped on to set — Elliott has exactly the same thing — what was expected of me, the fact that there was a parameter that I had to work within, I was being given very clear direction and I had to achieve that, I loved that. I found that so satisfying. And he’s the same. He’s incredibly diligent. He takes direction unbelievably well. He’s so focused. I was the same when I was a kid. I just really tapped into that.
Villarreal: Did you think of it at that age in “career” terms or as in “play activity” terms?
Ronan: It was like when a kid loves football and all they want to do is just kick a ball all day. That’s all it was. And I was really lucky that both my mom and my dad never put pressure on me to pursue it as a career. I really only started seeing it as that and referring to it as that when I became much older. It was always just this thing that I loved to do and it was almost like it was a part of me, you know. It’s only been in recent years that I’ve started to actually see it as a job, which took some adjustment to reframe your love for it and your relationship with it. It’s always been a part of who I am.
Villarreal: Before I let you go, I have to ask this question. As a fan of Greta, there are rumors that you are slated to work with her in her adaptation of “The Chronicles of Narnia.” Any truth to that?
Ronan: I would love to be in it. If she asks me, I’ll be in it. That hasn’t happened yet. I think she’s just very focused on writing the script right now. But yes, if she asked me to be in it, I will be in “Narnia.” I’d be Mr. Tumnus if I have to. I’ll be whatever she wants. I’ll be the snow. I don’t care. I’ll be the wardrobe.
Villarreal: You heard it here first.
Ronan: Saoirse Ronan willing to do anything to get into Greta’s next film.